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Updated both VR and sample teams!

Big thanks to Stratos and AuraRayquaza to their help in getting it all together. We will be working harder here on out to keep this community resource as up to date as possible, so any discussion is welcome.

DPL is coming up so it might not be a bad idea to brush up on BW DOU to help increase your stock value to getting picked up


It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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Thought I'd bump the thread to ask that my team that I used vs Psynergy last dpl be added to the sample teams list. Mainly because I've seen a number of other people use it since I posted it in the thread, and I think it's a solid team. Also the current samples don't have any Tornadus, and it's definitely tier 1 in BW so this'd plug that hole as well as adding some variety!

The paste is here:


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This format sounds hella broken lmao. Sign me up! Ive been watching the DPL matches for BW and it looks really fun. How can I get started? Is there a ladder for BW?
Your best bet to find games is to ask in the Smogon Doubles room on Pokemon Showdown or in the #oldgens channel of the Smogon Doubles Discord. BW DOU doesn't have an official ladder anymore, since it's a rather old format. I do think it's very fun to play though, so I'd encourage testing the waters with it if you have the opportunity!


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The updates to the VR and sample teams have really given a breath of fresh life into the quality of early BW games so far in the BW Cup of Grand Prix, and it's been enjoyable to watch a number of games. However, I think the VR really could appreciate a further update, and so I have a long-winded post arguing for the rise/fall of various Pokemon that I think should be ranked differently. I will be ordering my nominations by rank; that is, I'll nom all my Pokemon to tier 1 first, then nom all to 1.5, then 2, etc.

Heatran 1.5 -> 1

Heatran is ridiculously powerful in BW. Being a Steel-type is already important enough, but it is easily the best Fire-type in the tier, important for simultaneously combating Steels+Amoonguss. Heatran's Substitute is an enormously powerful tool, because it often finds opportunities to get it up for free against Pokemon like Cresselia, Amoonguss, Steels, Latios, and a wide range of less viable Pokemon, and exerts significant pressure once it gets it up and with the threat of getting it up. Because of Heatran's average Speed tier, it plays excellent in Trick Room, Tailwind, and with Thunder Wave, allowing it to pressure targets with Heat Wave to enable great gains from Substitute. Lando and Excadrill, despite OHKOing Heatran with Earthquake, rarely have the opportunity because of how easy it is to flip the board with Speed control or make favorable trades if it has a Substitute. If the move isn't Earthquake or Muddy Water, Amoonguss + Heatran is a ridiculously hard combo to break, forcing players to often give up significant resources to make it happen. Heat Wave deals consistent damage to a wide majority of teams, and Gem Eruption sets can break through defensive Pokemon like Kyurem-B more easily too. The only real downside of Heatran is that it struggles vs rain, but I've seen Heatran behind a Sub with proper anti-rain support be just as strong. A team that can't beat Sub Heatran in teambuilding is not a viable team, and its splashability on balance makes it an easy tier 1 pick in my eyes.

Jellicent 1.5 -> 1

On my money tour retrospective, I only placed Jellicent as 1.5, thinking that maybe it was just a "me" Pokemon and that it still struggled a lot vs a lot of things. Now, however, I think Jellicent is easily a tier 1 pick. Jellicent offers a incredible amount of advantages to the player that uses it. It is strong against the core of Politoed+Kingdra+Scizor, walling it and setting Trick Room to spread burns. It boasts the incredibly powerful ability to spread burn in BW, a tier where only 3 Intimidate Pokemon are viable (4 if you count Gyarados but I definitely do not), and often gets to spread this burn first with Will-o-Wisp, or heaven forbid a Scald on a switched-in target. Even if it couldn't Trick Room, Jellicent easily survives every physical attack in the tier save Choice Band-boosted attacks, utterly walls the two most important Fighting-types in Conkeldurr and Hitmontop, and trades well with the rest. But it gets something else too - Recover, which is incredibly important in a tier where beating bulky Pokemon like Cresselia is often a game of multiple turns of passive damage + a couple big hits. Jellicent is also a natural win condition because it beats a wide range of Pokemon, and it can even run more niche options like Taunt to beat Amoonguss and opposing Jellicent harder. Jellicent bodies many of the common Pokemon on balance teams, making it a powerful pick both for and against those teams. Water Absorb lets it heal from stray Muddy Waters and avoid Scald burns, but Cursed Body can also turn games around by disabling a critical attack from the opponent's toolkit, e.g. a spread move. The vast majority of my most successful teams in BW had a Jellicent, and I think the correlation is not coincidence. You can even run "bad Jellicent" sets like Water Gem Water Spout and still have a strong overall Pokemon. I see no reason this shouldn't be tier 1.

Kyurem-B 1.5 -> 1

This Pokemon is absolutely ridiculous. For all I meme about it, the Choice Band variant is a seriously strong set, and while I think many players use Outrage prematurely or otherwise very poorly, as a lategame win condition this Pokemon is outstanding. An opponent with weakened Steels / no Intimidate will just lose Pokemon to Kyurem-B, Outrage or not, because of its sheer power.

However, I still find Substitute Kyurem-Black with Ice Beam and Earth Power to be the superior set. Having a Pokemon that can simultaneously threaten big damage on genies and Heatran is a rare sight, and the mere existence of the Substitute set compels Cresselia to run a ton of offense, lest it risk not breaking Kyurem-B's Sub with a Psychic. It has many opportunities to find Substitutes with its excellent bulk or partner assistance, letting it make powerful trades as Ice Beam does over 50% to most targets it really wants to hit. Kyurem-Black's Speed tier also affords it good ground as a Pokemon that typically will outspeed much of its non-super-fast competition, meaning it has the same dynamic of being able to exert pressure to get Substitutes on switches/Protects.

In addition, in theory, you must account for both sets of Kyurem-B at once. If you play defensively against what you expect to be Banded cube and Protect as they Sub on you, you probably just lost immediately. I say in theory because people don't like to teambuild for older generations and thus recycle teams (so you can just look up which set it is), but in practice matches against unfamiliar builds this Pokemon is really, really hard to play against. As long as you're not mindlessly clicking Outrage because "hurr durr I KO a Pokemon ex dee who cares about board", I think Kyurem-B is easily a tier 1 pick.
Kingdra 1 -> 1.5

Kingdra's strength on rain is undeniable, but that's just it: it has to be on rain. I have yet to see any competitive team with Kingdra on it that does not also have Politoed. Obviously, Kingdra is better than Politoed, but the two are so fundamentally intertwined that I can't see why Kingdra should be ranked higher. In any case, I think rain is overrated; it often relies on making aggressive plays to win, which can result in a lot of play 50/50s that are inherently biased against Kingdra because it must connect its attacks if it guesses offensively. It's obviously strong, but not nearly as flexible or overpowered as other Pokemon in tier 1.

Scizor 1 -> 1.5

I don't feel as strongly about this one, but Scizor often has momentum problems that I think plague it from being a proper tier 1 threat. If you are able to consistently pin Pokemon with Bullet Punch, Scizor is an absolute monster, but it often doesn't win the damage trades otherwise. Combine that with losing to most of the Pokemon I think should be in tier 1 (Heatran, Thundurus, Jellicent), and while I think Scizor is quite generally strong, it has some fundamental flaws that hold it back from tier 1 status.

Hitmontop 1 -> 1.5

Another Pokemon that I feel is strong but overrated. Hitmontop is incredibly polarizing with its matchups; it completely dunks on Tyranitar, and cannot do jack squat to Jellicent. Intimidate and Fake Out are both important, underrepresented tools in BW, and Fighting Gem Close Combat keeps a lot of Pokemon that take the hit neutrally honest, but it just honestly feels so easy to pressure out Hitmontop and take advantage of it that I don't find it to be a compelling tier 1 pick.

Landorus-T 2 -> 1.5

Landorus-T's typing and Intimidate afford it significant usage on balance teams, offering value in a wide range of circumstances. Landorus-T's Choice Scarf set allows it to be one of the most flexible fast Pokemon in the tier thanks to U-turn and an immunity to Thunder Wave. Speaking of which, Stone Edge threatens an important OHKO on Thundurus, not something a lot of Pokemon have to offer. Earthquake can be a powerful lategame cleaner on the Scarf set or a strong early game breaker with the Focus Sash set, making Landorus-T an excellent lead Pokemon no matter which set you use. The primary things holding Landorus back are 1) its weakness to rain teams and 2) its awkward Speed. It is fast with Choice Scarf, but then you have the limitations of Choice Scarf (being obligated to U-turn / switch more often, can't Protect, etc). It is more flexible with Focus Sash, but then it cannot U-turn on Pokemon like Latios, Hydreigon, or Scarf Ttar as safely. Still, teams that can account for these two weaknesses see Landorus-T shine, particularly on teams like semiroom. Landorus-T is also very strong versus offense without rain, being able to pressure fast, important KOs before the opponent can gain Speed control, and using Intimidate to limit the opponent's offensive momentum.

Conkeldurr 2 -> 1.5

This Pokemon is STRONG. Life Orb Hammer Arm and Ice Punch totally run through teams, solidifying is as a highly threatening force on Trick Room squads. Its low Speed means it can underspeed Amoonguss after a Hammer Arm to Ice Punch it for great damage, but it can still be fast enough to outspeed paralyzed Latios if it wants to as well. Priority is great in BW as well, and a Mach Punch does not often disappoint. Conkeldurr does every offensive role that Hitmontop wants better; you can even run Fighting Gem for an even stronger initial Hammer Arm. Additionally, Guts Toxic Orb / Flame Orb is a viable option to screw with Amoonguss and Jellicent who think they can just ignore Conk, allowing Conk to proceed to wipe out all of their partners. Its special bulk is lacking, but it still has enough HP and physical defense to trade well with a lot of Pokemon's attacks, making it not nearly a glass cannon.
Tornadus 1 -> 2

Tornadus being ranked as tier 1 is honestly extremely bad. Its main role is to be an abuser of Defiant + Flying Gem Acrobatics, but what it really does is trade a not-KO or Tailwind for itself most of the time. Tornadus has horrendous 4MSS, wanting Acrobatics / Superpower / Protect with certainty, but then desperately needing all three of Tailwind, U-turn, and Taunt. It is hard countered by Thundurus in almost every way, does not trade well with Steels, and fails to OHKO even Pokemon like Latios with Flying Gem Acrobatics, much less do significant damage after the Flying Gem is consumed. It's not good vs rain or Sand teams, it's outsped by Scarf Landorus-T and OHKOed by Stone Edge (one of the three viable Intimidate users), and its bulk is really only average. The only reason I don't think this is tier 3 is because LightningRod support actually works well with it to fix the Thundurus problem and because it is very good vs a select number of Pokemon, but nevertheless this Pokemon is highly overrated and needs to be brought down to 1.5 at an absolute minimum, but 2 is really where this belongs.

Breloom 3 -> 2

Breloom struggles a lot with its subpar bulk and not stellar offensive capabilities, but Spore makes up for it in many ways. Teams relying on middling Speed tier Pokemon or using slow Trick Room setters are susceptible to this offensive Spore, and while Sleep Clause inherently limits Breloom's capabilities, sleep is such a powerful BW mechanic that I think it warrants tier 2. It also is generally not a Pokemon you can ignore; you usually have to do something about Breloom, because if not, Bullet Seed vs non-Steels will do an annoyingly large amount of damage if left alone.

Hydreigon 3 -> 2

Hydreigon is no Latios, but it offers Dark-type STAB for consistent damage vs Jellicent and Cresselia, as well as important coverage moves in Flamethrower for Scizor and Earth Power for Heatran, things Latios can't do. Life Orb or Gem sets are both effective on Hydreigon, and it functions very similarly to Latios in many ways, save the immediate speed. It is also importantly still fast enough to outspeed Kyurem-B and threaten an OHKO, always a welcome addition against cube.

Gothitelle 3 -> 2

Gothitelle, in my opinion, is heavily underexplored in BW as a means of checking balance. Taunt + Shadow Tag can trap dangerous Pokemon like Jellicent, Amoonguss, and Cresselia in to remove or completely ignore them. It can also function as a control-based Cresselia; while not having the immediate bulk of Cresselia or the durability and flexibility of Jellicent, it nevertheless offers a lot as a Trick Room setter. Lastly, Gothitelle functions effectively on Rainroom, giving a Perish Trap option with Politoed and cleverly doubling around to lock in key anti-rain pieces to remove them.
For tier 3, 4, and UR nominations, my reasoning will be less detailed. I can expand on these as requested.

Abomasnow 2 -> 3

Hail is nice and Blizzard is strong, but this Pokemon is super hit or miss. If it can't land super-effective Blizzards, it does absolutely nothing most of the time, and is often dead weight vs Steels. Has a nice non-TR niche of turning off rain, but that's about all utility-wise other than the generic chip of hail. Scarf is inconsistent, and Sash is obligated to run Wood Hammer to actually damage Ttar and Waters, which breaks your own Sash.

Scrafty 2 -> 3

This is outclassed by Hitmontop in most regards. You really have to want Crunch and/or Dark typing to justify using it.

Gastrodon 2 -> 3

This thing is good on paper; it walls Jellicent, Heatran, Thundurus, and trades well with a bunch of other Pokemon too. However, it never actually ends up doing anything. It has significant 4MSS, wanting Earth Power / Muddy Water / Ice Beam / Recover / Toxic / Protect all on the same set, and even Sub if you're n1n1. The problem with this thing is at least in part its low speed. It doesn't trade well because it's always attacking second, and if you're in Trick Room, you often want more powerful Pokemon than Gastrodon attacking. It also doesn't beat rain if the opponent isn't stupid. Definitely more of a niche pick than a tier 2 pick.

Mamoswine 4 -> 3

Mamoswine is similar to Kyurem-B in being able to threaten knockouts on both genies and Heatran at the same time. It also notably cannot be paralyzed, an important trait when fighting Thundurus. Sash is impossible to be broken with weather, and Life Orb / Scarf both have great offensive pressure associated with them. Definitely better than most of the tier 4 mons.

Thundurus-T 4 -> 3

While it is not easy to justify giving up using regular Thundurus, Thundurus-T offers far more offensive presence, with both Scarf and Specs sets being viable. Volt Switch allows it to reposition boards, and boosted Thunder is nothing to sneeze at. From experience, I feel this is a tier 3 mon.

Sableye 4 -> 3

This Pokemon DUMPSTERS balance. Being a Ghost-type means it is immune to Fake Out, and the combination of Prankster Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, Recover, its own Fake Out, Feint, Foul Play, etc. means it offers a lot and can do a lot versus a wide variety of strategies. Sableye is basically forced into Mental Herb because of bulky Thundurus, but it can even reverse Taunt that if it really wants to do so. Unlike Thundurus, it lacks really decent offensive pressure, only having Foul Play kind of, but it can easily be a huge pain for balance squads in particular.

Marowak UR -> 3

This is easily the best hard counter to Thundurus available in the tier. With LightningRod, it shields its allies from all of Thundurus's Electric attacks, and HP Ice doesn't even 2HKO. Marowak is also fairly strong in its own right, being able to pressure Heatran through Sub with Bonemerang and offer lategame win conditions with Perish Song or even in tandem with Gothitelle.
Gyarados 3 - > 4/UR

This Pokemon is absolutely terrible. It's got Intimidate, which makes it usable, but it struggles to have a real set. Dragon Dance sets are forced into running Double-Edge to hit Thundurus, but that means it is utterly walled by Jellicent, Amoonguss, etc. Bulky sets are basically just trying to be Thunder Wave Cresselia, so you might as well just use that. This Pokemon is threatened out by so much and offers little in return.

Infernape 2 -> 4/UR

Along with Tornadus, this is the easily the worst ranking in the current VR. In theory, it has fast Fake Out and Fighting and Fire STAB, which is cool! Except it is outsped and OHKOed by Latios, Kingdra in rain, Torn, offensive Thundurus and Scarf Lando and is completely walled by Jellicent and Cresselia. Moreover, it fails to pick up KOs on no bulk cube, Heatran, Chople Ttar, Amoonguss (without Fire Gem), etc. This Pokemon offers very little and in the vast majority of games will see its speed taken away and get bopped.

Togekiss 2 -> 4

Togekiss's role of redirecting Fake Out and setting Tailwind is superseded by other Pokemon that can frankly do more. Rage Powder Volcarona does almost everything Togekiss does.

Salamence 3 -> 4

Its only real use is on mono-Dragon. There's little reason to use this over Latios or Hydreigon.

Bisharp 3 -> 4/UR

Hitmontop runs max Speed in this tier, so Bisharp also has to run max Speed, which means it's obligated to hold Sash and have no bulk. It just doesn't do anything, really, and has no usage.

Deoxys-A 3 -> 4

Unless you're DragonWhale, this thing sees no usage, because it's hyper vulnerable to priority, cannot trade well with Steels, struggles if the opponent has any kind of speed control, and has Sash commonly broken because of the ubiquitous Tyranitar.

Heracross UR -> 4

Bug Gem Megahorn hurts stuff, and it has Close Combat to hit Heatran and other Steels. If it gets going with Moxie, it can actually steamroll games.
Porygon2 3 -> UR
There is no reason to use this thing over Jellicent or Cresselia or Goth. It's cool in theory, until you realize Hitmontop and Conkeldurr exist and it has all the problems of lack of offensive pressure the other TR setters have.

Victini 3 -> UR
The only time this Pokemon saw any usage was on that stupid Latias sample team. I haven't seen any significant usage of Victini and I'm not confident it actually does anything of substance in BW.

Darkrai 4 -> UR
I don't think I've even seen this Pokemon in a BW DOU match, much less on a competitive team.

Raikou 4 -> UR
Why ever use this over Thundurus syndrome

Rotom-H 4 -> UR
Cube kills this with Earth Power, which honestly was its only niche as a Fire-type immune to Ground.
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It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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Going to just write my thoughts in response rq. Anything I didn't comment on is either something I didn't care about or agreed with
Heatran 1.5 -> 1

The only real downside of Heatran is that it struggles vs rain, but I've seen Heatran behind a Sub with proper anti-rain support be just as strong. A team that can't beat Sub Heatran in teambuilding is not a viable team, and its splashability on balance makes it an easy tier 1 pick in my eyes.
I think Heatran is tier 1 due to its sub's good matchups but as I've mentioned before to Stratos if you're running Heatran without Sunny Day or Ttar somewhere on the team you're pretty much auto-losing to Rain. AFAIK the only practical users of Sunny Day are Cress and Amoonguss, but Amoonguss either has to drop Protect or lose an attack.

Kingdra 1 -> 1.5

Kingdra's strength on rain is undeniable, but that's just it: it has to be on rain. I have yet to see any competitive team with Kingdra on it that does not also have Politoed. Obviously, Kingdra is better than Politoed, but the two are so fundamentally intertwined that I can't see why Kingdra should be ranked higher. In any case, I think rain is overrated; it often relies on making aggressive plays to win, which can result in a lot of play 50/50s that are inherently biased against Kingdra because it must connect its attacks if it guesses offensively. It's obviously strong, but not nearly as flexible or overpowered as other Pokemon in tier 1.
This is an issue that comes up with every gen's VR wrt rain: usually the sweeper is ranked higher even though they come together since you run Politoed to enable Kingdra's potential, and not the other way around. I disagree with the stuff about rain relying on making agressive plays to win - played properly offense teams keep yourself in the advantage with potential to capatlize and force the opponent to do damage control ("what eats this Outrage - ah fuck I have nothing", etc) and ofc the game can reach a 50/50 but it's not like rain inherently has a <50% winrate like this seems to suggest.

Like idk if you mean something different from the sequence: "agressive teams have to make agressive plays" and then saying "agressive plays are 50/50s" but Kingdra doesn't get 50/50s because it has accuracy problems?

Scizor 1 -> 1.5
Imo Scizor has extremely strong matchups against HO teams - think teams running Latios / Thundurus / Kyurem - to the extent that offense isn't very strong atm because of it. Add to this that it provides good defensive typing for certain switchins. I've seen/played games where Scizor was able to singlehandedly pull back a lost position after losing two mons against offense. It also heavily disincentivizes Draco Meteor'ing whenever you feel like it

Tornadus 1 -> 2

fails to OHKO even Pokemon like Latios with Flying Gem Acrobatics
idk if this is a mistake or you mean it's a roll - it's 87.5% roll to ohko from full. Also imo the standard set is Acro/Superpower/U-Turn/Protect and Taunt/Tailwind are mostly niche moves. Sam used this with specs/rain/hurricane really well too

Hydreigon 3 -> 2
Idk dark coverage isn't super useful save for Jelly / Cress and it has a lot of bad matchups - usually hard to justify over Latios. You have to pick between losing to both steels and having Tailwind or having coverage to snipe one of the steels.

Gyarados 3 - > 4/UR
Intimidate is really good and Normal gem Gyarados is a good set imo. It's not really walled by Amoonguss and Thundurus is moreso a check than a counter. Its Jelly matchup is pretty bad tho. Quite often the other intimidates don't fit if you're worried about your Rain matchup in particular.

Infernape 2 -> 4/UR
Infernape is really good wtf. Having fastest Fake Out / Feint gives offense a lot of room to lead into Hitmontop and punish it, and the things that would want to twave it generally will take a big hit in some regard while also having to find a way to predict vs Fake Out. In general since it's strong AND has Fake Out/Feint it gets a lot of utility the turn it comes out (like gen6 Kang) while also not really draining momentum in most situations. Personally the only reason I could see this going down would be saying that HO in general sucks lol
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My opinions

Tier T (For Thundurus)
Thundurus I

Tier 1:

Tier 2:

Tier 3:

Tier 4:

Notable Differences
  • Combining 1 and 1.5: Honestly it just feels different meta opinions at this point. Some people like different sets better, but there's no denying that these dozen Pokemon basically gets thrown on most teams well and basically defines the tier
  • Thundurus-Tier: Thundurus is nowhere in the same tier as Heatran, Kyurem-B, Cresselia, or Tyranitar, whatever other Pokemon you think deserves tier 1. It's just that much better. If you look at Known BW Players who I respect a lot for their metagame insights (Keith, Biosci) as well as other good players known to play BW (Dawoblefet, stax, qsns, smb, mizu, Auray, etc.) There's a lot of different opinions on whether something like Tran, Kingdra, Kyub, Hitmontop, Tar, etc. should be t1 or not. People who disagree that Thundurus is the best Pokemon in the format is a minority, and those still rate Thundurus at 1. It's the only Pokemon that unanimously makes tier 1, which I believe speaks for its strength.
  • Conkeldurr stays at 2: Conkeldurr is really strong but I believe it just simply doesn't sway the metagame the same way anything else on 1 does. It's one of the best mon in 2, but difficult to claim it is the single best one there, so I think it's a fair placing. Could possibly argue this being tier 1, but meh.
  • Tornadus drops to 2: I tend to agree here that Tornadus is just not that good to be placed in 1. It is one of the best Offense-generating Pokemon and Flying types are supposed to be hard to resist especially with the Superpower coverage. In practice Thundurus and Dragon-types forcing Steel-types basically means that most teams will have 2+ resists to this thing, and it's less effective when Hitmontop no longer being the top dog is now accepted as a fact. Superpower can hit Steels, but concedes so much momentum or even just lets your opponent score a return KO. Potentially biased opinion here but if you're arguing it for t1 then I at least want to see a metagame where there's enough people actually punishing greedy teams and force people to explore other parts of the metagame.
  • Breloom and Gothitelle rises to 2: Gothitelle's obviously so good I think it's a no brainer. Breloom's ability to quickly force a sleep sack is really great I think it deserves 2 until I see more people having better sleep counterplay.
  • Gastrodon and Ferrothorn falls to 3: These are just ugly Pokemon that are passive and don't do much for your team. Ferrothorn is Sub Bait for Tran and Metagross, and get completely destroyed by Amoonguss, Scizor, and Fighting-types that it struggles to check Rain or do anything useful on most games. I just don't think that mon is good. Hating on Gastrodon is not unique so I won't beat a dead horse.
  • Chansey, ranked 3: Chansey is actually pretty good because it is the Queen of greed. Any greedy value-forward strategy is completely unable to get anywhere against Chansey long as the team has decent checks to the Fighting-types like Hitmontop and Conkeldurr that are so easy to come by (Goth, Cress, Jelly, etc.)
  • I also agreed with Dawoblefet on rise for Mamoswine and Thundurus for their Thunder Wave immunity, but I don't really have an opinion on Sableye because I don't use 5 Pokemon that get fucked by taunt.
  • I ranked Marowak, Ninetales and Garchomp in 4. I think Lightning Rod Utility, weather control, and Garchomp's place on Mono Dragon are worthy reasons to put each of them on the VR.
  • Idk about tier 4 so I just left most of them them there. Most of them are memes that can make it on rare teams. Hard to really judge them when a lot of the playerbase who play BW are not exploring anything. Excited to see more (actually good) heat from Keith and Biosci!
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Thanks for the response Checkmater! I'm totally fine with these nominations being challenged. A few points I feel would be good to respond to:

idk if this is a mistake or you mean it's a roll - it's 87.5% roll to ohko from full. Also imo the standard set is Acro/Superpower/U-Turn/Protect and Taunt/Tailwind are mostly niche moves. Sam used this with specs/rain/hurricane really well too
That calc is definitely a mistake on my part; I think that I was confusing the Latios roll with the Acrobatics roll on Terrakion in hindsight, which is this:
252 Atk Flying Gem Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 271-319 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So appealing to Latios as an example of Torn's poor damage output is pretty dumb. But in any case, I still think its poor damage output post-Gem and 4MSS are still big issues with Tornadus that other offensive Pokemon in tier 1/1.5 don't seem to struggle with as much. Giving up Tailwind is hard, because it while U-turn gives Tornadus more safety, it's one of the best Tailwind setters out there, and it increases Tornadus's flexibility to be able to set a Tailwind or try to Taunt something if Tornadus isn't threatening important damage. A special set is viable for basically the same reasons regular Tornadus is viable, and I don't really see any significant advantages adding another special attacker does for rain, especially since it's not like you get any new options and are pressured into running Focus Blast > Superpower. I guess it hits Amoonguss, but Acrobatics does that too. I think its insanely poor matchup against Thundurus is enough to drop it to 1.5 minimally, and it's just not as effective as other Pokemon in that tier for the reasons I gave.

This is an issue that comes up with every gen's VR wrt rain: usually the sweeper is ranked higher even though they come together since you run Politoed to enable Kingdra's potential, and not the other way around. I disagree with the stuff about rain relying on making agressive plays to win - played properly offense teams keep yourself in the advantage with potential to capatlize and force the opponent to do damage control ("what eats this Outrage - ah fuck I have nothing", etc) and ofc the game can reach a 50/50 but it's not like rain inherently has a <50% winrate like this seems to suggest.

Like idk if you mean something different from the sequence: "agressive teams have to make agressive plays" and then saying "agressive plays are 50/50s" but Kingdra doesn't get 50/50s because it has accuracy problems?
I think your justification for ranking Politoed lower than Kingdra is fair. For me, that'd just imply we rank Politoed in 2.

I think that my Kingdra nomination reflects more fundamentally on my playstyle, where I think that these sorts of offense teams tend towards forcing players to consistently make reads to be successful. There's nothing wrong with that; I just don't like making reads. An idealization of positioning-based hyper offense is exactly the type of HO I find most attractive, but the strongest rain team (Whitewater) is hardly a positioning-based rain variant; it tries to overwhelm the opponent with damage, not pivot to offensive pressure and then make positionally aggressive plays (that is not to say Rain can't play positionally, but often that it's better to just whack the opponent). Consider a situation of Latios + Thundurus vs Kingdra, for instance. Will the Kingdra Protect as Latios Protects, fearing the Protect + Thunder Wave play? Or will Kingdra just Draco Meteor, taking advantage of the Speed it has for sure on this turn? These sorts of 50/50s happen all the time, but Kingdra's moves can miss, which naturally lends the advantage to the player on the receiving end in case they get those calls wrong. I'm of course not arguing that because Kingdra can miss, rain somehow has a < 50% winrate or is bad; on the contrary, it is quite good. It is not, however, the best strategy in BW, and since Kingdra just is the face of rain, I think 1.5 better represents its strength in the metagame than 1 does.

Infernape is really good wtf. Having fastest Fake Out / Feint gives offense a lot of room to lead into Hitmontop and punish it, and the things that would want to twave it generally will take a big hit in some regard while also having to find a way to predict vs Fake Out. In general since it's strong AND has Fake Out/Feint it gets a lot of utility the turn it comes out (like gen6 Kang) while also not really draining momentum in most situations. Personally the only reason I could see this going down would be saying that HO in general sucks lol
Applying any Speed control vs this thing utterly shuts it down. You can't run both Focus Sash and Fire Gem, which means you either die in one hit or you fail to OHKO Amoonguss and chunk stuff for any real damage. Having fast Fake Out is mostly irrelevant because the only one you need to outspeed is Hitmontop and I guess Rage Powder Volcarona if you want to flinch the partner. It loses to the majority of my tier 1 + 1.5 as I argued in my last post. I think it fits wonderfully on a team that wants to role compress Hitmontop + Fire-type, but those needs are more niche and hardly worthy of 2.

Outside of that, I think a lot of your points were fair enough; I especially like your justification for Scizor's staying rank 1, and others should consider it.


Banned deucer.
whitewater is probably not even the best rain team in the metagame, and is certainly not the best kingdra-centric team (it is not kingdra-centric, there's a scizor). If you are basing your opinions on rain solely (or mostly) on whitewater, then they are going to be skewed.

Thundurus is hands down the best mon in the tier, but it does tend to be forced to die early. The goal of Whitewater is to force trades with Thundurus such that one of Kingdra or Scizor can sweep. The problem is that its 2 Thundurus beaters (OThund and Cube) both lose to Latios, which causes Kingdra itself to have to trade with Thund. This is fine if the opposing team doesn't have a Heatran, but if it does, then Scizor can't sweep, and then you're in trouble. Thund / Latios / Heatran is a pretty popular trio, so I don't tend to like using Whitewater anymore.

Thing is, there are other ways around Thund (+ Latios) that Whitewater doesn't use. I have a team with RP Volc + Lum Rak + SpecsToed. Shaian rain uses Wak + Metagross + Sub Kingdra. Bisharp exists, as does Mamoswine. Can even possibly use Goth to force good trades, much as I hate the existing Goth rain teams. There are a lot of better rain teams I'm sure nobody has even built.

It's barely a simplification to say Kingdra automatically wins if it's still unstatused and Thundurus / Ttar / water resists are dead. And it's not even cold stopped by most of those things, it can usually chunk them and switch out. Yeah you can build to not lose to Kingdra by putting 4 of the things I just mentioned on every team (which can still lose to Kingdra... just not guaranteed), but to say Kingdra isn't tier 1 because every good team has 4 counters—because having less than that is an autoloss—seems as crazy to me as saying that Kang isn't the best mon in XY because the meta is to run 2 Rocky Helmets per team.

I think I'm ok with marilli's suggestion to combine 1 and 1.5 with a Tier Thund. It's easier than trying to convince you nerds that Ttar is overrated


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Starting my team dump with my sole appearance in BW:

Week 5 // has mence for no reason // vs SMB
:bw/tyranitar: :bw/excadrill: :bw/conkeldurr: :bw/cresselia: :bw/thundurus: :bw/salamence:

I went into BW week 5 because four weeks straight of XY was giving me brain damage and I wanted some variety in my life. I wanted to get a fun, tough battle in before the break so I deliberately went to where SMB was, hoping that Arctic won't sub him out for no reason as was the theme.

Going into it, I didn't really have anything in particular I wanted to use. One thing I knew, however, is that Thundurus is the biggest demon there is; with that in mind, I wanted to use Sand Rush Excadrill, a strong attacker that actually didn't fear being Thunder Waved to death. Conkeldurr was added in because the idea of a strong-ass Mach Punch for something like Kingdra or Kyu-B seemed really appealing to me. With these two + required Tyranitar, I basically had the base of the team set.

I really disliked the idea of Drill Run Exca so as much as possible I wanted to have Ground-immunes for the last three slots. I was also interested in having TR somewhere as a way of giving TTar and Exca some way to be more threatening than they should be. Cresselia was a no-brainer in this regard. Next was Thundurus, who is broken; not much else to say about him.

For the last slot, I didn't really know what exactly I wanted. For a while, the 6th slot was empty because idk what to put there tbh. I knew I wanted resists to stuff; no water resist so far + only fire resist being Tyranitar was really sketchy as hell. At the same time, I wanted it to have coverage on Metagross and Scizor, those are threats that I know SMB uses and didn't want to fuck around with. Last, I knew I wanted something that still has favorable matchup against Landorus-T; I knew SMB loved that guy. I was honestly at a loss until I saw one of Stratos's old teams that had Salamence and that was when I had a eureka moment, and that was that.

For notes on specific sets: I have Pursuit on Tyranitar because, aside from it being an epic move, I wanted to make sure Latios and Jellicent can't run away whenever they want and be assholes to my team. It's Babiri + Fire Blast because, aside from beating Sciz, I didn't want to concede position versus Metagross; this is also the same rationale for EBelt + HP Ground Cresselia. The Thundurus spread is live Lati Gem Draco and outrun Jolly Lando-T, the speed bench important because, again, SMB loves that guy.

The team name on my builder is based on the fact that I basically slapped Mence on there. The NNs are drivers for Scuderia Ferrari.


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While I think the still-unchanged VR of BW DOU is of primary concern, I want to propose a change to the tier that I think is worth doing: unbanning Sky Drop (and subsequently banning Gravity).

Back in Generation V, a glitch existed with Sky Drop and Gravity which caused Pokemon to remain unable to move until they were KOed, essentially turning a double battle into a 2-on-1 fight. By clicking Gravity during the middle of Sky Drop, the user of Sky Drop is freed and able to act, but the target that was brought into the air cannot do anything. They can select moves, but their move for the turn will always be skipped. This glitch persists until the Sky Drop user switches out or is KOed. As an aside, this glitch actually isn't implemented on Showdown right now.

Given the utility of Sky Drop in later generations, I think it could be reasonable to expect Sky Drop would see usage as a niche filler move in this generation. It offers a unique way to break redirection, allows for interesting combos as a pseudo-Fake Out, and has other cool applications that make it usable in other tiers. Note that Sky Drop does not have a weight restriction in Generation V, so it can pick up Pokemon like Heatran and Tyranitar where you couldn't do that in later games. Conversely, Gravity sees no usage in BW DOU; about the best you could offer would be Gravity Sableye but it really wants just about any other move it can get.

The reason Sky Drop was banned and not Gravity I assume was due to precedence from VGC at the time. VGC banned Sky Drop once the glitch was discovered rather than banning Gravity. However, banning either part of the combo is sufficient to prevent the game-breaking glitch. Since we don't really have any particular reason to follow VGC precedence, I think banning the part of the combo that has negligible at best impact on the metagame would be preferred, opening up Sky Drop as an option.

For reference: a list of DOU-legal Pokemon that could use Sky Drop in BW:
Aerodactyl, Articuno, Braviary, Charizard, Dragonite, Mew, Moltres, Pelipper, Rufflet, Skarmory, Smeargle, Thundurus, Tornadus, Zapdos


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Yeah we're gonna do this ^

There's minimal to zero downside here, Gravity has rarely (if ever) been used at all in BW DOU and Sky Drop is a really unique move with a lot of cool applications. Since the Gravity + Sky Drop glitch still exists it's still important to have one half of it banned, but the choice between the two is ours to make.

Therefore, Gravity is now banned and Sky Drop is now legal in BW DOU.


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If you can fit it on your Thundurus moveset then more power to you. I'm a huge fan of this as Sky Drop is easily one of my favorite moves that we got back to use in later gens. Gravity was honestly only used in degen strats in its peak usage anyway, so I always did wish Pokemon formatted the ban like this instead of banning Sky Drop.

Rise up Defiant Thundurus gamers :blobwizard:


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bw had sleep clause still intact anyway, so gravsleep has never really been a concern in the tier (thankfully)

given that, ya gravity has basically no real use and sky drop is the more interesting and relevant move to make available, so this is a good change. That said, even though it should get used more than Gravity was, I do wonder if it'll get used much either. It doesn't get used much in other gens.

The main reason it would be better in BW vs later gens is that I think there wasn't a weight restriction yet in BW, so you can actually sky drop heavy mons like Tyranitar, Metagross, and Heatran. That makes the move significantly less risky of an option since it can incapacitate anything, even if it doesn't damage the Flying types (or really significantly damage a lot of stuff).

That said, I'm still not sure the meta is favorable to the general mechanic and Thundurus already has other good options. Dropping anything for Sky Drop is a choice. Mew and Tornadus are also viable users, but also ones with other options and already kinda niche in BW.

side note: viability rankings should probably be redone post DPL


Banned deucer.
apparently wob is going to post a fucking eight hour video about bw tomorrow. before then let's at LEAST clean up tier 1. My school of hyper offense dominated this metagame from about 2015 to 2018 but hyper offense is out and wob's new school is in. He's shown pretty clearly how Thundurus plus Jellicent reduces the consistency of hyper offense to the point that it is basically an RNG fest to bring these teams. Not that they are unviable at all, but you are going to be flipping coins every turn; if you trust yourself to outplay your opponent, the List is probably a safer pick in most cases. Honestly I hate the List and in my head I am sure that there are many viable hyper offense teams that can break through the meta but they haven't been found yet so let's work off what has actually been found.

Kyurem-B 1.5 -> 1
This is the second best Pokemon in the meta behind Thundurus. Won't say more. This will definitely pass.

Heatran 1.5 -> 1
If you aren't running rain, you are automatically Heatran weak. And the most fucked up part is, the best steel to put on Heatran weak teams is Heatran.

Jellicent 1.5 -> 1
A bit shaky here because he really does nothing a lot of the time. However, Trick Room fucks up hyper offense and he's the best setter by a mile. Also capable of winning 1v4s so he forces you to be super conservative with your checks.

Landorus-T 2 -> 1
I'm not even sure I believe this one myself but let's get the conversation going. Best TWave immune. Best Intimidate. Consumes bulky Thundurus on intimidate-less teams (which are increasingly common). Like Heatran, if you aren't running rain, it's easy to be weak to this guy, though I wouldn't say it's automatic.

Hitmontop 1 -> 2
I know that at one point I thought Hitmontop was really good but I could not tell you why.

Scizor 1 -> 1.5
He's super good, but hard to fit on anything but rain because of the aforementioned Heatran thing.

Tornadus 1 -> 3
Yeah without offense teams this guy doesn't get to feed. +0 Tornadus doesn't OHKO anything on the List except Latios and if he isn't getting OHKOes he is kind of shit. Also weak to thund etc you get the picture.

Tyranitar 1 -> 1.5
Tyranitar is a real double edged sword. Yeah he's a decent Pokemon, removes rain, etc, but running Tyranitar means you're Heatran weak and now you are adding 6% chip to most of your own team which makes you even more heatran weak (it really adds up!). He's a Heatran check himself but an awkward one because he's slow and can get donked. He's really good if you are weak to sub cube though.


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I have developed an 8 hour long video discussing the finer details of BW, from a general overview of the tier to a detailed analysis and discussion of over 40 Pokemon. You can watch it here:
An Excursus on BW DOU

0:00 - General BW DOU thoughts; discussion of clauses
16:35 - Overview of BW mechanics
32:45 - Tier 1 (starting with Thundurus)
1:02:17 - Kyurem-B
1:47:38 - Heatran
2:12:50 - Jellicent
2:42:46 - Latios
2:59:39 - Tyranitar
3:15:44 - rain (Politoed / Kingdra)
3:36:42 - Tier 2 (starting with Amoonguss)
3:55:30 - Conkeldurr
4:18:24 - Cresselia
4:33:16 - Hitmontop
4:46:00 - Landorus-T
4:59:50 - Metagross
5:10:35 - Scizor
5:23:14 - Volcarona
5:40:00 - Tier 3 (starting with Breloom)
5:46:23 - Excadrill
6:00:36 - Genesect
6:05:50 - Gothitelle
6:11:36 - Hydreigon
6:21:26 - Keldeo
6:27:36 - Marowak
6:38:48 - Ninetales
6:45:50 - Rotom-W
6:50:36 - Shaymin-Sky
7:00:00 - Terrakion
7:05:52 - Tornadus
7:13:03 - Thundurus-T
7:19:05 - Tier 4 (starting with Abomasnow)
7:24:42 - Chansey
7:29:18 - Ferrothorn
7:33:38 - Gastrodon
7:36:02 - Heracross
7:38:44 - Mamoswine
7:41:54 - Mew
7:43:41 - Rhyperior
7:44:42 - Sableye
7:46:03 - Salamence
7:49:06 - Scrafty
7:51:16 - Suicune
7:52:19 - Victini
7:56:28 - Brief discussion of various UR Pokemon
This is my current opinion on the BW DOU viability rankings, which I develop and argue for in the video There are differences in this VR with what I previously have argued for in this thread. Of note, I am combining Politoed + Kingdra as one entity to represent rain (I think solo Kingdra is UR and solo Politoed is 3/4). I removed tier 1.5 in favor of simply using 1, 2, 3, and 4, and I don't include a tier 5 as I think most tier 5 Pokemon are bad. Rhyperior is missing from this graphic; it should be tier 4.

Sample teams (click to view):
Last edited:


Banned deucer.
We voted on a ton of VR shifts. 40 to be exact.

:kyurem-black: kyurem-b 2 -> 1
DaWoblefet: 1. Has two broken sets, each are independently tier 1, absolutely tier 1 by itself

Stratos: 1. my nom

Biosci: 1

AuraRayquaza: 1

Memoric: 1

:heatran: heatran 2 -> 1
DaWoblefet: 1. Beats everything but rain and isn't even unusuable vs it since it hits the Steels rain uses. Sub is extremely difficult to break and forces respect constantly while on the field

Stratos: 1. my nom

Biosci: 1

AuraRayquaza: 1

Memoric: 1

:jellicent: jellicent 2 -> 1
DaWoblefet: 1. Best answer to rain + Steel in the tier, Recover lets it outbulk the majority of the fat side of the metagame, best Trick Room setter, best Will-o-Wisp user, utterly walls Top/Conk, rarely feels useless

Stratos: 1. my nom

Biosci: 1

AuraRayquaza: 1

Memoric: 1

:landorus-therian: landorus-t 3 -> 1
DaWoblefet: 2. Good vs sand, Thundurus, Scarf good vs Latios, 2nd best rocker in the tier. Has problems with being weak to rain and hates special hits, needs max Attack for Thundurus and it's still only a roll with Stone Edge. Not quite tier 1 material with amount of rain still active imo

Stratos: 1. Yeah fuck it. Lando for 1.

Biosci: 2. Excells at being the best intimidater in the format to help keep sand and Scizor in check, but outside of being an early game U-turn bot and late game EQ spam he sucks in many other departments

AuraRayquaza: 1. Best intimidate in the format and is great at checking loads of strong mons like scizor/metagross, sand and thund. Really great scarf sets and rocks sets (or both on the same set :o). Has issues vs rain but as ive learnt from playing dawoblefet just click eq early, most rain teams ground resist is only thund so just force tough decisions early and soften stuff up

Memoric: 2. really good but with rain around so much i really dont think this can be a tier 1 mon

:hitmontop: hitmontop 1 -> 3
DaWoblefet: 2. Intimidate + FO + Feint are super good traits, Gem CC is always good. Struggles with metagame turning more bulky and Gem CC not being as relevant (Jelli popularity hurts too)

Stratos: 3. my nom

Biosci: 3

AuraRayquaza: 3. most of the time i just prefer lando. the fighting typing isnt something i ever yearn for and its just a liability vs jellicent which isnt epic, at least lando can u turn out.

Memoric: 3

:scizor: scizor 1 -> 2
DaWoblefet: 2. Incredibly hard to use outside of rain, hates bulky waters, but Gem BP isn't going anywhere

Stratos: 2. my nom

Biosci: 2

AuraRayquaza: 2. very dangerous you cant give this mon even one free turn or it just owns

Memoric: 2. i think this is only good in rain tbh but it owns there

:tornadus: tornadus 1 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4. Tornadus sucks lol, it loses very very badly to Thundurus, is pitifully weak after Gem (and even pre-Gem isn't very strong), Hitmontop has FO / Feint mindgame and Scarf Lando outspeeds and OHKOs so Defiant doesn't matter /that/ much, big 4MSS

Stratos: 4. my nom

Biosci: 4

AuraRayquaza: 4. a fake gamer that has been exposed. loses to thund always, and everything anywhere near tier 1 after its first acrobatics

Memoric: 4

:tyranitar: tyranitar 1 -> 2
DaWoblefet: 1. Sand chip is busted, it's the best rocker in the tier, great vs the majority of tier 1 naturally, emergency rain check. Don't think it needs to drop.

Stratos: 2. my nom

Biosci: 1. Without ttar, rain honestly steamrolls the format. If you aren't using rain, you should be using ttar. One of the best "goodstuffs" Pokemon off all time, providing so much help to a teams calcs thanks to infinite sand this generation.

AuraRayquaza: 1. permanent sand chip is so epic, it almost invalidates life orb as an item for me because of all the residual damage: you switch into rocks, take sand chip, attack, take sand chip and youre at 65 already. its a rain check that doesnt clash in terms of typing (water/grass/dragon). it has loads of good sets (sash, scarf, band, chople rocks) and even some gamer ones like twave.

Memoric: 1. you're either rain or tar i think so yeah

One of these days I will convince u fuckers that ttar is 2
:latios: latios 2 -> 1
DaWoblefet: 1. Gem Draco defines Dragon in this metagame. More people are experimenting with HP Ground > Tailwind which I think makes it a lot better at not getting walled by Heatran + Metagross. Great revenge killer.

Stratos: 2. Really agonized over this one but he just trades basically

Biosci: 2. Best at being versatile, sure. Its power and utility aren't high enough to put it into 1 though. Most well known at crapping out damage onto the board and being a target for when Kingdra is on the field

AuraRayquaza: 1. its so strong and fast that it pressures the very common type of balance we see now super hard. power level doesnt drop massively even after gem usage and you can mever be sure if it has hidden power or just tw so your steels arent always safe.

Memoric: 1. this is just a really menacing attacker, threat of tw or hp ground is gamer

:politoed: politoed 2 -> 1
DaWoblefet: 1. Rain's good and Politoed + Kingdra should be ranked together.

Stratos: 2. Don't want people to look at the VR and think toed without dra is ANY good. At least dra without toed goes on mono dragon lmao

Biosci: 2. Rain is extremely good, Politoed isn't

AuraRayquaza: 2. uh this is unepic without kingdra but with kingdra its 1

Memoric: 2

:conkeldurr: conkeldurr 3 -> 2
DaWoblefet: 2. Destroys the vast majority of the tier in TR. Hammer Arm lets you outslow Amoonguss, or you could outspeed Latios after para. Best Fighting type in the tier easily.

Stratos: 2. Absolute slugger. You cannot take his hits without status. He requires a lot of twave/TR support to not die quickly but that's all.

Biosci: 2. Best TR Pokemon

AuraRayquaza: 2. so disgustingly strong under tr. beats up a whole bunch of top mons (thund lando kyub tran ttar) and has the stats to work outside of tr (with fighting gem not lo ._.). can even catch jellicents out with thunderpunch on 4 attacks sets which are lowkey very epic

Memoric: 2

:volcarona: volcarona 3 -> 2
DaWoblefet: 2. Has two independently strong sets (Rage Powder and Quiver Dance); Rage Powder walls Sub cube + Fighting-types. Poor tier 1 matchups but very good vs tier 2 and below.

Stratos: 2. QD is pretty bad, like tier 4 mon, but being the best redirector in the tier is enough for t2. Love this guy

Biosci: 3. Seems pretty fitting as a 3. I'm not as big of a believer in the RP set, but both RP and QD are still extremely potent when they pull the correct match ups for them

AuraRayquaza: 2. i love qd but its just not great now, you just cannot be a liability vs subtran jelli and rain. rage powder is really good tho, it redirects well vs a lot of balance mons (sub kyub, thund, steels) and frees up stuff like your own sub mons to game hard

Memoric: 2. rp moth good, threat of qd exists and isn't ignorable either imo

:breloom: breloom 4 -> 3
DaWoblefet: 3. Yes, Spore is nearly a kill in BW which makes up for its mediocrity otherwise

Stratos: 3. Is spore really that good...? yeah ig lol

Biosci: 4. I don't see this Pokemon above 4 with sleep clause around

AuraRayquaza: 3. its spore is epic. its actually really good at breaking in midgames too, mach punch can open tran/kyub subs and it can pressure jelli hard when you might be struggling to get through them. im a big fan

Memoric: 3. ye spore is really good; i dont really buy this nom but it's a menace when it positions well

:genesect: genesect 4 -> 3
DaWoblefet: 3

Stratos: 4. He's just so weak to Thundurus, Heatran, Jellicent, Stealth Rock, the list goes on... I feel like the only time I've ever seen a Gene do >100% damage is when he booms t1

Biosci: 4. Great U-turn bot, but falls short way too often in getting work done

AuraRayquaza: 5. nope im always choosing metagross scizor and tran over this. it can u turn and has decent coverage but i think this mon sucks tbh

Memoric: 5. i dont see this being a choice over the actual good mons, can be too much of a liability than a winner

:gothitelle: gothitelle 4 -> 3
DaWoblefet: 3

Stratos: 4. She has seen some more useful comps outside of rain, the team SMB brought against me last week was scary as is marilli's chansey, but I think it's just 4 for now. Loses 1v1 vs every mon but the Fightings, trapping is the only merit here.

Biosci: 3

AuraRayquaza: 4

Memoric: 3. trapping good

:hydreigon: hydreigon 4 -> 3
DaWoblefet: 3

Stratos: 4. Very hard to justify over Latios, especially with HP ground latios being a thing. Still has its niche but it's kinda small.

Biosci: 3

AuraRayquaza: 4. i think about it a lot but always think i could just be using latios instead, most of the time i can be

Memoric: 4. could be using latios instead most of the time

:marowak: marowak UR -> 3
DaWoblefet: 3. Best LightningRod in the tier where Thundurus is the best mon, rocks is good, Bonemerang lets it be the only mon to threaten an OHKO on Heatran through sub

Stratos: 5. Like Conkeldurr he dies quickly without speed control, but he's awkward on both TR (because he serves no purpose) and twave spam (because you can't with him out)... So he just dies quickly. Still a valid Pokemon.

Biosci: 5. Deserves a rank because sure Thundurus is a scary guy. Conk does the rest of its job better

AuraRayquaza: 5. thund is so good that this deserves to be ranked

Memoric: 5

:ninetales: ninetales UR -> 3
DaWoblefet: 3

Stratos: 5. Anti rain is epic. Never does shit in battle. Still 5 ig.

Biosci: 5. I believe in Ninetales, but only enough to be a 5

AuraRayquaza: 5. god this mon sucks, its like just BARELY 5

Memoric: 5

:thundurus-therian: thundurus-t 5 -> 3
DaWoblefet: 3

Stratos: 3. Yeah. Fast attacker immune to TWave with real good coverage? That's tier 3.

Biosci: 3

AuraRayquaza: 3. i can appreciate mons that hurt jelli and are immune to twave. it even volt switches for you

Memoric: 3

:abomasnow: abomasnow 3 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 4. Almost no usage. He just doesn't hit hard enough. I still think scarf is best smd wob

Biosci: 4. No usage. Dies to everything, most of the meta doesn't care about its coverage

AuraRayquaza: 4. fake gamer but its blizzards keep it from tier 5

Memoric: 4. rain answer but lol

:chansey: chansey UR -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 4. A level of special bulk cress could only aspire to. threatening wincon vs wob teams

Biosci: 5. It probably fits 4 more than 5, but I need to see more results first. It has some neat tools and I could see it going higher pending some meta shifts, but I need to see it

AuraRayquaza: 4. this mon is so annoying to beat sometimes, its p much a rain check and even has toxic/twave to cause trouble so its rarely deadweight

Memoric: 4. this guy is good at being a pivot and being a wincon thanks to polarized mus across the board, generally. lack of pressure lets it down tho

:ferrothorn: ferrothorn 3 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 5. He eats shit

Biosci: 5. Rain teams don't even need to hit this super effective to beat it. Ferro has seem more of his friends die in combat than a war veteran

AuraRayquaza: 4. gamer

Memoric: 4

:gastrodon: gastrodon 3 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 4

Biosci: 4. I wanna make this 5 too, but 4 is fine for now

AuraRayquaza: 4. its like not really a rain check and doesnt even deal with thund quickly enough so whats the point in being a ground type

Memoric: 4

:heracross: heracross UR -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 5. Only really goes anywhere vs intimless teams and it needs Tailwind to do so. extremely edge viable.

Biosci: 5. I'm a firm believer in heracross, but Lando-t and Jellicent so common in current times its not higher than a 5

AuraRayquaza: UR. im not convinced this is any good. if it sees a lando/top its sad, if it sees a thund its mildly sad unless its hp flying then very sad. it needs so much support for what usually amounts to 1 ko in a game

Memoric: UR. im not seeing it

:mamoswine: mamoswine 5 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 5. Nobody uses him for a reason. Much better on paper.

Biosci: 5. Mamoswine's niche in VGC was the fact that it was an Ice-type. We have Kyurem-B here

AuraRayquaza: 5. much like heracross but at least its offensive coverage is good and it feels bulkier

Memoric: 5

:mew: mew 5 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 5

Biosci: 5. Same arguement as Chansey. I believe in Mew, but I need to see more from it

AuraRayquaza: 4. it gets ally switch :o

Memoric: 5

:sableye: sableye 5 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 5

Biosci: 5

AuraRayquaza: 5. ive tried hard to make it work and it always just feels like youre fighting with 5 mons

Memoric: 5

:scrafty: scrafty 3 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: 4. Yeah, you really have to hate Latios to run this over Hitmontop. But it does have its use

Biosci: 4

AuraRayquaza: 5. i can never justify this over top, and i can barely justify top. the dark typing for jelli isnt enough when it doesnt actually hurt jelli and lando is a big partner.

Memoric: 4. it can threaten lati and cress for slow, tr-using teams ig

:infernape: infernape 3 -> 5
DaWoblefet: UR. This Pokemon is not good. You want Sash and Fire Gem simulatenously and struggle without both, Thundurus beats it hard, Jelli walls completely, CC doesn't get Heatran or Chople Ttar, doesn't even pressure a cube OHKO, and fast Fake Out isn't needed in this tier

Stratos: 4. His coverage and Fake Out / Feint is still incredible even if he's frail and weak to speed control

Biosci: 5

AuraRayquaza: 5. very sad

Memoric: 5

:togekiss: togekiss 3 -> 5
DaWoblefet: UR. Why would you ever use this over Rage Powder Volcarona, sees no tournament play either

Stratos: UR. Has to run too much speed to redirect Hitmontop and has a worse resistance spread. Just use Volcarona

Biosci: 5

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR. run moth

:bisharp: bisharp 4 -> UR
DaWoblefet: 5. Needs Dark / Iron Head / Low Kick or it gets walled by Fightings or Heatran, which means you don't get double dark and have unreliable stab. Still exerts pressure enough to be ranked but is extremely frail and doesn't like fighting a lot.

Stratos: 5. Extremely good mu vs half the high tiers. Dont listen to wob, Iron Head is completely droppable. The other half of the high tiers DESTROY him.

Biosci: 5. Always been a firm believer in Bisharp. If it wasn't for Conk and Amoonguss, I'd rank this higher than Tornadus

AuraRayquaza: 5

Memoric: 5

:deoxys-attack: deoxys-a 4 -> 5
DaWoblefet: 5. Psychic Gem Psycho Boost is probably underexplored but it's not something I expect to get better anytime soon

Stratos: UR. I can't come up with a reason to use this over a strong scarfer

Biosci: UR. No tour usage, and honestly just a bad Latios

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR. this is probably demonic but gotta run the numbers

:gyarados: gyarados 4 -> 5
DaWoblefet: 5

Stratos: 5. compress the roles of losing to rain and losing to rain checks

Biosci: 5. Strong Initimidate Pokemon on paper, very weak results

AuraRayquaza: 5

Memoric: 5

:porygon2: porygon2 4 -> 5
DaWoblefet: UR. why would you ever use this over Jelli, except to also be weak to Hitmontop / Conk

Stratos: UR. Has potential probably but no usage so fine with UR

Biosci: UR. p2 does nothing in this format with Cresselia around

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR

:rhyperior: rhyperior 5 -> 4
DaWoblefet: 4

Stratos: UR. Yup. Worse Marowak. Why rank him?

Biosci: UR. No tour usage. Any Water-type smacks it around. Does nothing after an Intimidate. Can't even safely say you beat Thundurus when you can get Grass Knot'd out of no where and lose your life for it.

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR

:darkrai: darkrai 5 -> UR
DaWoblefet: UR. Doesn't see tournament play

Stratos: UR. Has potential probably but no usage so fine with UR

Biosci: UR

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR

:ludicolo: ludicolo 5 -> UR
DaWoblefet: UR. Doesn't see tournament play

Stratos: UR. So many better rain checks. So many better rain mons. Shite.

Biosci: UR

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR

:raikou: raikou 5 -> UR
DaWoblefet: UR. lol

Stratos: UR. nice access, but thund is just too much better

Biosci: UR

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR. use thund

:rotom-heat: rotom-h 5 -> UR
DaWoblefet: UR. In theory a Fire-type with Levitate is cool except cube has Teravolt Earth Power rip

Stratos: UR. The worst fucking pokemon of al time

Biosci: UR

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR

:weavile: weavile 5 -> UR
DaWoblefet: UR. Fast Fake Out unneeded, role is better filled by Scarf Mamoswine, Beat Up + Terrakion hasn't seen tournament play with Weavile for at least 3 years if not longer

Stratos: UR. Can't imagine putting this on a team unironically

Biosci: UR

AuraRayquaza: UR

Memoric: UR. :)


:kyurem-black: kyurem-b 2 -> 1
:heatran: heatran 2 -> 1
:jellicent: jellicent 2 -> 1
:landorus-therian: landorus-t 3 -> 2
:hitmontop: hitmontop 1 -> 3
:scizor: scizor 1 -> 2
:tornadus: tornadus 1 -> 4
:latios: latios 2 -> 1
:conkeldurr: conkeldurr 3 -> 2
:volcarona: volcarona 3 -> 2
:breloom: breloom 4 -> 3
:gothitelle: gothitelle 4 -> 3
:marowak: marowak UR -> 5
:ninetales: ninetales UR -> 5
:thundurus-therian: thundurus-t 5 -> 3
:abomasnow: abomasnow 3 -> 4
:chansey: chansey UR -> 4
:ferrothorn: ferrothorn 3 -> 4
:gastrodon: gastrodon 3 -> 4
:heracross: heracross UR -> 5
:scrafty: scrafty 3 -> 4
:infernape: infernape 3 -> 5
:togekiss: togekiss 3 -> UR
:bisharp: bisharp 4 -> 5
:deoxys-attack: deoxys-a 4 -> UR
:gyarados: gyarados 4 -> 5
:porygon2: porygon2 4 -> UR
:rhyperior: rhyperior 5 -> UR
:darkrai: darkrai 5 -> UR
:ludicolo: ludicolo 5 -> UR
:raikou: raikou 5 -> UR
:rotom-heat: rotom-h 5 -> UR
:weavile: weavile 5 -> UR
Last edited by a moderator:


Banned deucer.
Aight, I said I'd post my prep process so here goes. The goal here is to give newer players insight into building and thinking about the most obscure DOU format. Hopefully I have the right balance of brevity and information.

R1 vs DaAwesomeDude1
Game 1: :politoed: :kingdra: :terrakion: :breloom: :volcarona: :shaymin-sky:
Game 2: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :conkeldurr: :thundurus: :cresselia: :salamence:

As anyone who's prepped with me before knows, my main tool when prepping is to put a player's recent teams in a lineup and rearrange them to look for patterns. Then I look through my recent teams and see what I think has generally good matchup into their tendencies. I decide on my game 1 and game 2 teams ahead of the match, and if it goes to game 3, I pick based on how the set has been going. If I don't feel confident in what I already have, that's when I decide to build something new.

I'll be recreating my prep notes for the earlier rounds because they've been since deleted.

Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 17.31.28.png

To be honest I barely remember prepping for dad1. I remember looking at four recent teams though I'm not even sure these are the right four, but here's how I'd arrange them if they were. Running down the standard BW wincons:

Rain is checked by slots 1, 4, 6, and kind of 2.
Steels are checked by slots 3 and 5.
Dragons are checked by slots 2, 3, 4, and 6.
Fightings are checked by slots 1, 2, and 4.

If i were using my brain I would probably have rolled up with some substitute Metagross stuff but these replays were already mega old at the time and my philosophy was basically to bring teams I liked and hope I won. BW was my weakest run in 2019's Prix so I was much more placing my playoff hopes in a deep XY run, where I had just won the Skymin suspect tournament... so I just brought these two teams instead.

I love using Double Grass Rain, and it's so good into grasses / cube that they hardly even qualify as rain checks anymore. While TR Cresses and Thund could still be a problem very little else from dad1 worried me.

After Memoric played his one BW DPL game, I remarked that the team would be way stronger with TWave Cress instead of TR. You almost get to play a TR Conkeldurr team, except none of the traditional TR checks work against you. I tried it out and thought that basically it was incredible and I decided to bring it. dad had very few things to stop me from claiming a W with cress + conkeldurr, except for the fact that I fucked up my speed stats this week and they were slower than they were supposed to be lol.

R2 vs KW:
Game 1: :chansey: :gothitelle: :landorus-therian: :hitmontop: :suicune: :heatran:
Game 2: :thundurus-therian: :conkeldurr: :hydreigon: :shaymin-sky: :gastrodon: :heatran:

I still wasn't going all out on the prep at this point. Basically, I watched KW's week 1 games and saw that he used 2 Wob teams that were loaded up on special attackers. To punish this, I asked marilli to pass me his Chansey team. The theory here is that Chansey solos every special attacker while the double Intimidate mons solo the physical attackers and Suicune solos rain. I haven't altered it in any way, but if I did, the first thing I would do is definitely put Scarf or Sash on Lando-T... I'm not sure if KW saw this coming, but he rocked up with a near counterteam having Tornadus + Metagross + Conkeldurr as physical attackers, which rendered my double Intimidate core all but useless.

My plan was to use Chansey for both games but I needed a new plan in case he ran it back. Still expecting a wob team G2 I decided to run with listmon killer. Despite being called "listmon killer," I actually built this based just off the training data of DPL5 Wob, where he didn't use Latios a single time. It actually has a huge Latios shaped hole in its matchup chart. I prepped the MU like four times with marilli back during DPL6 and won 3/4 so it's not unplayable, but I don't like to bring it into someone who's known for using Latios. I feel like it can outplay in any other matchup. Fortunately KW didn't bring Latios but I played like an idiot so he still should have won.

R3 vs Sunrose:
Game 1: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :conkeldurr: :thundurus: :cresselia: :salamence:
Game 2: :chansey: :gothitelle: :landorus-therian: :hitmontop: :suicune: :heatran:

Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 17.52.03.png

Sunrose is where I really buckled down and started hardcore prepping because after being eliminated from XY cup with 0 points I felt my feet over the fire. In addition to making a mural of his teams I watched all of his replays, though these are the only notes I kept.

[5:49 PM] jumpy23: for some reason sunrose seems to love physical scarf cube
[5:49 PM] jumpy23: in bw
[5:49 PM] jumpy23: note to self, dont fall for it
[5:50 PM] jumpy23: i dont know what the fuck this latios item is but it just used ice beam and then draco meteor and didnt use life orb or gem
[5:50 PM] jumpy23: i hate this guys sets
[5:50 PM] jumpy23: it must be lum???
[5:51 PM] jumpy23: nevermind it ate gem im just blind
[6:05 PM] jumpy23: this guy terrifies me i have no idea what to bring g1
[6:05 PM] jumpy23: g2 i want to chansey him but i chanseyed kw g1 last round so i dont want to be cteamed
[6:06 PM] umbry: Id suggest just bringing something solid and play vs what you have in front of you

Rain is checked by slots 1, 2, 3, and 5.
Steels are checked by slots 4, 5, and 6.
Dragons are checked by slots 1 and 3.
Fightings are checked by various pokemon across slots, but there are a lot of checks.

I knew I didn't want to rain Sunrose, especially since Justin rained him r1 and it didn't work. The very fast Dragons meant a Dragon- (especially CB Cube)-centric wincon would require heavy TWave support. In the end, I decided on my existing TWave spam for g1 as per umbry's advice; though it didn't use a dragon wincon, it did have a strong dragon. Another player with no Intim-immune attackers (CB Cube, Metagross, Tornadus, SD users) and very few Sub mons = more chansey food. I ended up getting nearly perfect matchup both games so that was nice.

R4 vs Frania:
Game 1: :bisharp: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :heatran: :latios: :breloom:
Game 2: :chansey: :gothitelle: :landorus-therian: :hitmontop: :suicune: :heatran:
Game 3: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :conkeldurr: :thundurus: :cresselia: :salamence:

Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 17.54.00.png

Frania's stats were almost entirely these two very similar Ttar teams, with just one use of this (also similar) rain team. My scouting showed that he liked Jolly (? it wasn't adamant max, but could have been very fat) Lum TTar, Sub Gem Thund (no HP Ice) and otherwise standard sets. I thought that the only thing stopping Sash Superpower Landorus-T from tearing both of these a new one was Latios so I paired with a Bisharp. Normally my Latios answer is a trade, because Latios always just trades, but if that isn't good enough it's Bisharp time. This Bisharp was Jolly Low Kick for a cheeky OHKO on frania's preferred Tyranitar set This almost worked in our set except it was actually HP Ice Thundurus and I'm not sure whether I misread his replays or he changed it because he was scared of Chansey.

The building process for this team is a bit blurry in my memory. It was originally Cress + Amoonguss with a trick room mode but after one test game with Wob I decided that sucked and switched to Latios + Breloom, which worked better. I can't really go over why things were added because I don't remember but let's quickly cover all the main wincons:

Rain is checked by Thundurus, Breloom, Latios, and Bisharp can sucker Kingdra in a pinch.
Steels are checked by Bisharp, Landorus, Thundurus, Heatran, and Breloom in a pinch.
Dragons are checked by Bisharp, Thundurus, sometimes Latios, sometimes Breloom, and Heatran in a pinch.
Fightings are by far my shakiest matchup, but are checked by Thundurus, Latios, and Breloom's Spore. Frania didn't really like using wincon Fightings though.

Game 2 I had actually been planning to use marilli's CB cube team Wob linked above, but then I panicked when right before accepting the chall I realized it had no Excadrill matchup. I just went for the only team I had with double Intimidate which happened to be Chansey. It worked out very poorly.

Game 3 I could probably have gone back to my G1 team but the close ending scared me. I went for the comfort pick of the twave stuff again, and that's really all the reasoning I remember for it. It was probably a bad pick if frania ran back SD Excadrill (I have answers--conk mach, HP ground cress, Salamence, Fire Blast TTar, but they're all shaky), but he didn't and I ended up getting a pretty good matchup.

R5 vs SMB:
Game 1: :kyurem-black: :amoonguss: :thundurus: :landorus-therian: :hitmontop: :metagross:
Game 2: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :conkeldurr: :thundurus: :cresselia: :salamence:

At this point, I started discussing my prep in my DPL server, so I have much fuller notes to look back on. I'll post the log in hide tags, skip it if you just want a TLDR

[1:40 PM] jumpy23: smb has not used thund all bw cup....
[1:40 PM] jumpy23: how
[1:43 PM] jumpy23: it might be time for whitewater lmao
[1:43 PM] jumpy23: well he always has a bulky water though
[1:43 PM] jumpy23: oh it's chansey time actually his cune matchup is usually bad
[2:03 PM] jumpy23: my trustworthy teams

[2:03 PM] jumpy23: smb's teams

[2:03 PM] jumpy23: average steel count = 1.5
[2:03 PM] jumpy23: thund total = 0
[2:03 PM] jumpy23: 4 dragons across six teams and it's half scarf cubes
[2:04 PM] jumpy23: all of this makes me want to use double grass rain but the two tornaduses make me not want to, that's about all he has against it though so i may use it anyway
[2:04 PM] jumpy23: only one latios so list killer is a possibility for sure
[2:04 PM] jumpy23: only one lando so my listmons is a possibility
[2:05 PM] jumpy23: no thund no metagross so chansey's cool but there are 2 tornadus
[2:06 PM] jumpy23: too much excadrill for the top 2 teams, they're right out
[2:06 PM] umbry: Just click outrage lmao
[2:07 PM] jumpy23: i wonder if scarf cube is actually scary for double grass rain
[2:07 PM] jumpy23: outrage is tempting for sure
[2:07 PM] jumpy23: with all the bulky waters and cresses and not much intim
[2:07 PM] jumpy23: but he does average 1.5 steels
[2:10 PM] jumpy23: i dont think im awake enough to build a new team rn but if i think of something epic
[2:10 PM] jumpy23: that i dont have on any teams
[2:10 PM] jumpy23: i can give it a spin
[2:14 PM] umbry: Kyurem-black, Amoonguss, Thundurus, filler1, filler2, filler3
[2:14 PM] umbry: Its basically just the 3 ohko moves and the fillers
[2:14 PM] jumpy23: yeah he really relies on the 2nd and 4th slots to handle cube+thund
[2:15 PM] jumpy23: probably exploitable
[2:15 PM] jumpy23: 1 filler would be hitmontop for sure
[2:31 PM] jumpy23:
[2:31 PM] jumpy23: can it win with no fire resist
[2:33 PM] jumpy23: i also wonder about the double twave team
[2:34 PM] jumpy23: it doesnt lose to anything
[2:42 PM] Mishimono: i wouldnt bet against double twave
[2:44 PM] jumpy23: ye it kinda wins always
[2:44 PM] jumpy23: i might get cteamed though lol


There were a lot of ways my prep here could have gone. First I want to say I really respect SMB and I expected him to prep as hard as I did. SMB is a learner. Just as an example, he was using Psyshock Cress on all his teams until wob and I commented on a different player using Psyshock and how Psychic was better, and then SMB silently changed his teams to Psychic Cress. Can't stress enough how impressed I was by this.

In the end, umbry's suggestion of TWave + CB Cube was a really good one, so I went with it. SMB only had two Intim uses across six teams and really relied on his steels to check dragons, which doesn't really work into CB Cube. Starting from her suggested three, I knew I needed both Intimidates to give myself a Tyranitar matchup. I also needed a Steel as a dragon check. And if all you want from your steel is checking Dragons, Metagross is the pick. He can also serve as another wincon if Cube somehow finds a bad matchup. I went with Scarf Landorus because I was weak to Latios so I wanted a faster U-turn. The Hitmontop set was determined by wanting to get as many KOes with Cube as possible. The biggest fear with the team was definitely the lack of a fire resist, but I tested with Mishimono and was able to beat a Heatran so I called it good. I barely got to show this team off because it was over in two turns lol. Amoonguss is pretty expendable here, but I kept him on just for the TR matchup, and to let Cube get more kills with suicide Rage Powders.

Rain is checked by Thundurus, Amoonguss, and Kyurem-B. Slightly shaky matchup, but SMB had no rain. He ended up bringing rain into this and it was fine. Granted he brought Wob rain which was less scary for me than any of mine.
Steels are checked by Landorus, Hitmontop, Thundurus, and in a pinch Kyurem-B.
Dragons are checked by Thundurus, Metagross, and in a pinch Landorus-T.
Fightings are checked situationally by each member.

Game 2 I went for my Twave spam for basically the same reason. It has oodles of Steel checks and a strong Dragon type. However it turns out SMB had some heat of his own ready, with what I think might have been a cteam for my trends? He was ready for dragons this time between Scarf Lando / his first Thund / Scarf Abomasnow / Gothitelle / Heatran / What might have even been an Icy Wind Keldeo? so Mence was not gonna win me the game. Fortunately this team never loses and with some Good Fortune and a callout of the Keldeo switch I was able to beat this menace of a player.

Finals vs Ezrael:
Game 1: :cresselia: :heatran: :kyurem-black: :scrafty: :jellicent: :amoonguss:
Game 2: :bisharp: :landorus-therian: :latios: :thundurus: :breloom: :heatran:

[2:45 AM] umbry: Kyurem-black, Amoonguss, Thundurus, filler1, filler2, filler3
[7:58 PM] jumpy23: so jon almost entirely uses 2 ttar teams
[7:58 PM] jumpy23: with just a couple uses of borrowed rains
[7:58 PM] jumpy23: the same 2 ttar teams frania used
[7:58 PM] jumpy23: i havent watched replays yet to find exact sets though
[7:58 PM] jumpy23: my bisharp team did beat frania but i feel like it could b improved
[7:59 PM] jumpy23: i could also get cteamed
[7:59 PM] jumpy23: i did all my data collection bored at work so ill have to replicate it at home lol
[7:59 PM] jumpy23: i have a fighting 100% of the time so ttar might not appear

[7:56 AM] jumpy23:

[7:59 AM] jumpy23: unlike frania he seems to use standard bulky thund
[7:59 AM] jumpy23: so sash edge lando is probably a good call here
[7:59 AM] jumpy23: chople tar too
[7:59 AM] jumpy23: probably hes just using a direct woblefet paste
[7:59 AM] jumpy23: unlike frania who modified it
[8:02 AM] jumpy23: sub gross
[8:03 AM] jumpy23: gem latios
[8:03 AM] jumpy23: twind/hp ground unrevealed but im guessing hp ground
[8:07 AM] jumpy23: realized i shoudl just use the replay scouter lol
[10:16 AM] Mishimono: does ezrael seem like the type of person to ct?
[10:46 AM] marilli: i wouldnt say so
[10:46 AM] marilli: he might just steal a different dawoblefet team
[10:46 AM] marilli: tbh
[10:54 AM] Mishimono: yea that seems more likely
[11:32 AM] umbry: Kyurem-black, Amoonguss, Thundurus, filler1, filler2, filler3
[5:28 PM] jumpy23: u can keep posting that but it doesnt make it a good idea into someone with a nearly 100% tar + thund + latios + sub steel + intim rate
[5:29 PM] jumpy23: yeah i dont expect jon to build but he could steal a team thats more tailored for my tendencies
[8:14 PM] marilli: excadrill? is that good enough vs that
[8:14 PM] marilli: seems like they heavily reliant on lando to beat it
[8:39 PM] jumpy23: on the one hand yeah
[8:39 PM] jumpy23: on the other hand lando is already an exca matchup

[5:27 PM] jumpy23: find it kind of unlikely he wil be using the same 2 teams again
[6:25 PM] jumpy23: i feel absolutely confident in my bisharp breloom stuff for one game
[6:26 PM] jumpy23: but i dont know what im gonna do with the other 2 yet
[6:27 PM] jumpy23: i assume jon is gonna prep for double twave and chansey because i have a lot of uses of each
[6:28 PM] jumpy23: hes prepping with wob who thinks every non rain team needs ttar though
[6:28 PM] jumpy23: so i expect to see a lot of ttar and probably thund
[6:28 PM] jumpy23: actually thats not fair to wob hes had some tar less teams
[6:29 PM] jumpy23: it was biosci and memo who expressed that opinion
[6:36 PM] umbry: Theres chances u wont see the best mon in the tier
[6:37 PM] umbry: Bc wob thinks sub kyub is better
[6:38 PM] jumpy23: yeah i rly doubt i have to fear cb cube
[7:25 PM] jumpy23: if i was cteaming myself i might bring rain actually
[7:25 PM] jumpy23: maybe literal whitewater
[7:25 PM] jumpy23: is it time to finally use jellicent in this tour


Finals... I went all out here. In addition to scouting Jon, I ran a self scout, figuring that he would try to prep for me, so I could get on that yomi level 2 and cteam the cteam. Looking at my own teams, I figured that their rain matchups seemed ostensibly shaky (I'm confident any of them could beat it, but I'm not packing six hard counters per team) so I thought I was likely to get rained. My plan for the set was to open game 1 with an unexpected team pick and win, forcing Jon back to his comfort pick where I could destroy him with the Bisharp team.

I realized that the ideal lead from the Bisharp team into Wob's Gross sample was not Bisharp / Lando but Bisharp / Breloom and updated it accordingly. I changed to Fighting Gem Breloom, which OHKOes 252 HP TTar with Superpower through Chople and Intim. Since I didn't plan to lead Landorus anymore, I changed Superpower to U-Turn to give me another way to hit Latios. And I changed Bisharp to Adamant to guarantee the KO on scarf Landorus, since Jon didn't use Jolly Tyranitar. As it turns out, all of this prep came in big for our game, and I'm confident I've made the team much stronger in general.

My prediction of getting rained g1 was very wrong, but in the end, the general plan worked. The Mew terrified me Game 1 because I thought it might be Snarl Mew, which marilli had used against frania in an earlier round. However talking with Wob after the game it turns out it was a Mew from the SMB school, where it just packs wack ass coverage moves to counter threats you're afraid of. In this case it was built to cteam my popular picks so it's a good thing I went for something new.

As it turns out, Adamant Bisharp only OHKOes Landorus 75% of the time, but the counterteam was hard enough that I was still able to win.


A last look at the teams I used:

:politoed: :kingdra: :terrakion: :breloom: :volcarona: :shaymin-sky:
:tyranitar: :excadrill: :conkeldurr: :thundurus: :cresselia: :salamence:
:chansey: :gothitelle: :landorus-therian: :hitmontop: :suicune: :heatran:
:thundurus-therian: :conkeldurr: :hydreigon: :shaymin-sky: :gastrodon: :heatran:
:kyurem-black: :amoonguss: :thundurus: :landorus-therian: :hitmontop: :metagross:
:cresselia: :heatran: :kyurem-black: :scrafty: :jellicent: :amoonguss:
:bisharp: :landorus-therian: :latios: :thundurus: :breloom: :heatran:


So, general thoughts on BW after the tour? I've peppered a bunch throughout my notes so you should probably read them for any kernels I've scattered, but here's some big ones:

* Nobody seems to like rain lately. frania brought it twice. Jon brought it twice. SMB brought it once. I brought it once. I'm still looking to see if rain is the Pick for every opponent I face, but it rarely seems to be. It could have won most of the games I didn't bring it and you should absolutely still respect it but it makes me sad for the happy frog.
* Kinda related, eat your heart out everyone who said you need to be either rain or ttar. I brought 7 teams this tournament in total and 5 of them didn't have either of these Pokemon. Tyranitar is TIER TWOOOOOO. HE'S TIER TWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
* By far my favorite way to run Hitmontop is with Landorus. If you slap both of those bad boys on a team, you basically no longer have to worry about any physical attacker except Tornadus.
* If I'm scared of Steels, I slap this Heatran set on. I generally prefer it over Sub. Shuca allows you to really play Heatran like an asshole and just click strong moves off of base 130 SpA till you die.

Thanks for indulging my self congratulation post. I don't claim to have any answers, but I hope that this giant waste of your time at least taught you something about BW or about how to think about prep in general.


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sharing teams i used in classic that i have sworn off from using again for reasons.

CBG // Elemental Heroes

This team is built around Choice Band Genesect and its ability to OHKO Thundurus with ESpeed with +1 and HH. Of course, this never happened ever even once in practice due to Landorus-T being a common partner to Thundurus (except when I use Thundurus, apparently!), so I pretty much just used it for its strong U-turn, among other things, in a role that was pretty much just average.

Aside from that, this team features Normal, Good BW DOU Pokemon™, with the only other thing that could make someone do a double take being Modest Helping Hand Latios. Latios HH feels epic in that Latios + Gene are Pokemon that normally warrant a TWave response but not a Landorus-T response, and HH also allows me to eke some value out of Latios even within Trick Room. The rest of the sets are pretty much standard as standard Pokemon go; one could say that SubTran is safer but I digress, I felt the team liked the aggressive option in TR considering it's also one that likes having TR up, with the alternative methods of outrunning stuff with Latios and Thunder Waving stuff with Thund being more independent in how the team plays.

This team was originally built for KyleCole in BW Cup, where it finessed in one game but couldn't take another. More notably, I also used this team vs SMB in Classic PO, with the team having a dicey match-up vs. Curse Ferro + Goth; I made it out alive but I had to play brazy in a self-inflicted uphill battle. While the rest of the team should be solid, CBG is really just too weird and at times useless lol

double status chansey // Zodiac

This team looks more experimental, but the idea is that Chansey is good vs. certain team compositions in the metagame due to bing able to take on the many good special attackers and the few physical attackers being easy enough to play around. Chansey is here more as a way of glueing the team together by answering select threats on a game-by-game basis, instead of as dick that just wants to wall everybody; double status lets Chansey have value vs any kind of match-up, with Thunder Wave being especially handy vs more aggressive threats and Toxic letting me outvalue foes in slower match-ups. The Chansey is max Speed because I ran the numbers, thought I won't miss the HP that much, and would like to get a TWave off against Heatran and Metagross before they Sub lol.

Outside of Chansey, this team is pretty much just Normal, Good BW DOU Pokemon™, moreso than the last. There aren't really any fancy tricks with the other guys, no wack sets or anything of that nature. They do, however, appreciate what Chansey brings to the table. It's basically a weird bulky offense with Chansey taking a brunt of the work.

I did get demolished by Excadrill when using this team though, lol. When that thing is paired with Thundurus + Tyranitar, Jellicent pretty much never gets to do anything. I do not like how that game went so... yeah. If I were to make meta comments relative to this team, I would say that Chansey is actually a decent niche pick, but it's probably better with actual Intimidate Pokemon to better the exploit the polarized matchups it has on offer, if only to at least have a bare minimum sand match-up since every other match-up should be fine. I had another team with Chansey under construction but I never bothered to finish it, rip.

moth scarf gross // Unnamed

I'd very much say that this team is really rough around the edges, considering it's a team that was built around pre-DPL when I was trying to (re-)learn the metagame (which some people I tested with may remember). Demantoid, the opponent I brought this team against, seemed to like Tornadus + Goth, so I decided maybe this team with Scarf Metagross may prove epic. I ended up facing rain + Kyurem-B, which was tough but doable.

There's not much I can say about the team itself. The one-off nature of these tournaments, though, made Scarf Metagross a bit appealing; it's a surprise tech right now where Sub Metagross is proving very dominant, and it's capable of getting a quick pick (which it almost did!) or suddenly crippling something with a dirty Trick. There's definitely a balance to be had when it comes to the techs one can bring vis-a-vis how good the team it's in actually is or becomes, and I would honestly say that it's one that I only barely struck with this attempt.

Scarf Metagross isn't even that bad, genuinely speaking, and this team is definitely the most normal out of the three I posted here. It's just that the structure itself looks incredibly sketchy; it's too slow as an offense team, and the defensive synergy + natural bulk can feel lacking at times. My instant offense is solely dependent on Latios, with Volcarona and Tyranitar being things that would require some positioning or two. On the other hand, I didn't have enough natural bulk considering the weird combination of resistances I had; for example, my best fire resists are Tyranitar and Latios, which can be troubling against Heatran, while my best resist to Water was Latios, which can spell doom if I slip against Kingdra. I would say that it's okay and definitely playable, but there surely is room for improvement.

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I think Politoed should be tier 1 and not tier 2 though I am a newer player to the bw scene so take this with a grain of salt.
Politoed can be dead weight in some match ups yes but so can other teir 1 mons for starters. Poli facilitates Kingdra who is tier 1 which is a pretty solid reason for it being good as Kingdra with no Poli is Ur. The main weakness of rain besides Ttar and Jeli being super popular and powerful both being pretty bad matchups. But the third biggest weakness of rain imo at least is that Poli kinda sucks but that's when the op has a Ttar and your being heavily pressured to win the weather war and keep this thing healthy. However if say said Ttar or Abomasnow dies or isnt present then Poli sudenly is able to just spam helping hand or be pretty powerful with a specs set as
28+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Rain: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (404, 408, 414, 416, 422, 428, 432, 438, 440, 446, 452, 456, 462, 464, 470, 476) and
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thundy cant twave your Kingdra if its dead 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Thundurus in Rain: 340-402 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO as well as solidly 2 hit koing it with scald. Hitmontops wide guard annoying 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop in Rain: 232-274 (95.8 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO dont even calc scald. And you might be saying while gastrodon beats this 1. Gastro is uncomon and not super good and 2. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hidden Power Grass vs. 168 HP / 148 SpD Gastrodon: 388-460 (95.8 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO sure this is alot of rolls and what not but as long as you have a solid cleaner in the back aggressive Poli is a menace and if you can hit your hydro's that is. (Scald 2 hits anyways but meh)
That's not even calcing the stupid things helping hand spam+plus Kingdra can do which I wont because this post is already really long.
I rest my case Politoed Tier 2<Tier 1. I would like to know ppls thoughts on this the easyist way to show you agree would be to like but Im not gonna like whore so do what you want.
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A legality quirk for Eruption Heatran has gone unnoticed for many years, but is now properly implemented on Showdown. We've known for a while that Eruption Heatran's event was Nature-locked to Quiet, but it is also gender-locked to male. What this means is that a female Heatran cannot have Eruption. In a similar way to something like Greninja in Gen 7, this means every Heatran should always use a male gender to avoid giving up information. If you see a female Heatran at Team Preview, you instantly know it doesn't have Eruption. This mechanic is relevant still in Sword and Shield, because although Nature mints allow the Quiet Nature to change, genders are fixed in Pokemon!

In addition, although this has been implemented correctly for some time, Eruption Heatran cannot be Shiny. So a Shiny Heatran would also give away that it cannot have Eruption.


Tier 1 Nominations:

Politoed :bw/politoed:

Kingdra, which is tier 1, is completely unviable if not paired with Politoed, and rain is overall great right now, so I see no reason why these two should be ranked separately.

Tier 3 nominations
Scrafty :bw/scrafty:

This thing is super underrated. it does have a nasty fighting weakness and it's not quite that strong, but its got an awesome typing that and just enough attack to let it handle jelly and cresselia, which hitmontop couldn't dream of doing. It may not have wide guard or feint like top, but it has taunt to shut down trick room and prevent jellicent from burning it or amoonguss from sporing it.

It doesn't have the same offensive prowess that top has, but it's other benefits and its great typing I believe are enough for it to move up to tier 3 at least.

Marowak: :bw/marowak:

Marowak is easily the best hard counter to thundurus in the format thanks to lightning rod and its decent bulk, is a powerful trick room attacker with thick club, and is the only mon who can threaten to ohko heatran through sub thanks to it's signature move in bonemerang. It also can be used alongside gothitelle to form a perish trap duo and can be a decent stealth rocker. I'm surprised this thing doesn't see more usage than it does.

Abomasnow: :bw/abomasnow:

This one is probably the one that most people will disagree with, but hear me out. While it definitely has a lot of flaws and very polarizing match ups, Abomasnow can do very well with the right support. It can be a potent trick room attacker with its grass and ice coverage hitting a lot of the meta hard, and it's signature ability in conjunction with its grass typing lets it act as a solid check to politoed. Its weakness to and bad match up against fire and steel types can be made up for by pairing it with 2 other potent trick room attackers, Heatran and Marowak. Heatran in particular has great synergy with Abomasnow, as Abomasnow can bait fire attacks for Heatran to switch in on to grab flash fire boosts, and it can take care of fire and steel types for Abomasnow. In turn, Abomasnow can deal with ground types and water types that threaten Heatran. For trick room setters, Jellicent is great due to being able to fight off fighting and fire types and to burn physical attackers that threaten Abomasnow. Jellicent also can use recover to heal off hail damage it takes. Gothitelle is another great trick room setter to pair with abomasnow, with it being able to hit fighting types super effectively and it's shadow tag being able to force ice-weak or grass weak targets to stay in while Abomasnow blizzards or wood hammers them into oblivion. It also can provide helping hand support to add some strength to Abomasnow's somewhat wanting attacking power. Speaking of which, his only ok power can be made up for with a grass or ice gem, though i prefer the former so it can crush tyranitar, jellicent and politoed with wood hammer. Many people think that sash is obligated to not die to everything. While sash is very useful, it doesn't absolutely need it. After all, dealing with fire and steel types is what it's teammates are there to do!

In summary, Abomasnow needs heavy team support to handle it's many threats, but with it, it can perform excellently. I was a bit hesitant to put it in tier 3 at first, but in the end I feel it is good enough to be there and is worth giving a chance.

Most pokemon I put in tier 5 are pokemon that could probably find some niche but are overall bad rn.
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